|
|
Yesterday was time for my weekly, 3 and a half hour celebration I call “the laundry.” It started out with it's usual frustrations, a 30 minute walk, all the machines taken so another 30 minute wait there. After a while, we (Nick, the Australian, and I) started talking to some of the people in the laundromat. It turns out that there was a Palestinian and a Turk doing laundry as well.
The Palestinian (Dia, pronounced like the spanish word), found out that I was American through a previous conversation I had with a girl from Wisconsin. When everyone left except me, Nick, Liam (the Brit), Dia, and the Turk (I think his name was Gur, but I didn't really catch it), Dia looked right over at me and said, “So you're American?” It was one of those moments when I wanted to say, “No, I'm Canadian, eh.” Invariably, the next comment was the statement/question, “so all Americans hate Palestinians.” Mind, this conversation is taking place entirely in Russian, Dia speaks no English, only Hebrew, Arabic, and Russian. I, in all my three weeks of Russian, managed to get out, “We understand that not all Palestinians are terrorists.” To which Dia responded with a big smile and a hearty handshake. Phew, survived that one ... but wait, there's more.
The next salvo came immediately, “what do you think of the Isreal-Palestinian question?” Could there possibly be a more complicated and emotionally charged political issue at the moment than that? And I'm supposed to answer it in three weeks of Russian?? I can barely brave that question successfully in English. I made these comments out loud to the Englishman and the Australian, and everybody laughed. I assume Dia got the gist of what I was saying through my tone of voice.
Not stopping, he followed with, “what do you think of George Bush?” The Turk responded with “George Bush bad, Clinton good,” accompanied by thumbs down and thumbs up respectively. Pretty much the exact opposite of my opinion, and only correct if you're assessing the situation from a terrorist's point of view. In any case, I gave a truthful answer of “thumbs sideways.” Of course, I didn't specify that the major problems I have with Bush are the massive spending, I just left it to their own projection to decide what I meant by thumbs sideways.
Next came, “what do you think of Yassir Arafat?” I stuck with the same thumbs sideways, again, not specifying that the only real positives were the cool hat and special dance. Finally taking the initiative, I fired back with, “what do you think of Yassir Arafat?” His answer, “Arafat is like a God, I love him.” Despite that being sacriligeous in any of the monotheistic religions, he seemed quite sincere about it. I asked, “and Mahmoud Abbas (the recent, and very temporary Prime Minister)?” He gave an enthusiastic thumbs down, and said, from what I gathered, that Abbas was a terrorist. That sums it up, Arafat is a god, and Abbas is a terrorist.
I can't possibly make a generalization from this one person, but this could be a major problem blocking the peace process. Much of the world has decided that Arafat is irrelevant. Either he can't control the terrorists, doesn't want to, or both. In any case, he has failed as a leader and a partner for peace. But the people still love him, and they don't want anyone else at the helm. That was the reason Abbas gave for resigning, and Dia just substantiated it.
I think that most non-Palestinians have recognized by this point the futile nature of dealing with Arafat if the terrorism is to stop, but that brings about a major disconnect if the Palestinian people will only follow him. Great, the terrorists could care less about his authority, but the silent majority won't listen to anyone else. An impossible impasse.
The laundry ended on cordial terms, with a peace offering of a stick of Doublemint gum. Dia is a friendly enough person, and we live in the same building, so I will likely see him around again. Hopefully he doesn't decide to launch into another political conversation before my Russian gets up to a level where I can compete.
Posted by Owen at December 1, 2003 02:09 PM | TrackBackPretty much the exact opposite of my opinion, and only correct if you're assessing the situation from a terrorist's point of view.If you're against Bush, you're a terrorist. Got it. I love how sophisticated American politics is. Hm actually... Isn't this also the official position of the Republican party, as evidenced by their campaign ads ? So sad.
Posted by: Bugmaster at December 1, 2003 02:22 PM
My thumb goes sideways for both Clinton and Bush. Sideways for Clinton because everything got swallowed up with Lewinski (full puns intended), so judging issues was difficult by anybody's terms. For Bush it's the domestic policies. If he signs this medicare bill, I think my head will just explode. I'd probably talk about other things that I'd do, but big brother is watching, I'm sure.
Posted by: Jason at December 1, 2003 05:34 PMWhen in Rome?
It sounds like you did the best you could to honestly represent your opinion given your limited ability to communicate with this person. Unlike your other commenters, I won't use this occasion to take a cheap shot at Bush.
In terms of PR, Arafat makes Clinton look like an amateur. For a guy who came from terrorist roots, to so successfully re-style himself as a master statesman and hero of the Palestinians (while still supporting terrorists) is just incredible...and then there's the cool hat too.
All I can say is-Oh My goodness! A politician in
the making. I look forward to the conversations when you can compete in their language. I am so proud of you and I know it will be worth the wait. Be safe and don't forget your humble roots. Love, Mama
All I can say is-Oh My goodness! A politician in
the making. I look forward to the conversations when you can compete in their language. I am so proud of you and I know it will be worth the wait. Be safe and don't forget your humble roots. Love, Mama
To Bugboy and the Argonaut,
It is quite obvious that you are still "wet behind the ears". You have no concept of what it means to have morals, to stand up for what you believe in, not to back down, to stay the course. Fortunately for America and the rest of the world George Bush is president. If he wasn't and you all got your way by staying out of Iraq, not fighting terrorism where it lies, putting your head in the sand so you can't see it.
We would be fighting them on our soil. If we do not take care of them now, NO matter what the cost, your children and grandchildren will be fighting them here.
If you cannot see that these terrorist are hell bent to kill us (Americans and Jews), and want the whole world to believe in theie distorted view of Islam, then you are indeed fools. How does it feel to know if one of them was standing next to you that he would kill you without blinking, and it would not matter if you were a civilian, child, or woman. He would kill you simply because you are an American.
There are only two ways to solve this problem; 1. Change the minds of the terrorists. (that's not going to happen)
2. Kill them! (not because we hate them we don't we fell sorry for them, but because they give us no choice)
You see it's a war, a war against terrorism, and we must win this war before there will be peace. If we pull out or back down the war will continue without us, then we will be victims. Personally I choose not to have my children and grandchildren be victims.
Our soldiers are dying and losing their limbs to protect our way of life. They knew when they signed up that they may make the ultimate sacrifice. You should speak to them, they would tell you that they believe in what they are doing and they believe in the President.
If you can't support the President then you don't support our troops, you are not a terrorist you are just young and naive. You really don't have an understanding of what it means to be patriotic. Those who openly opose our position in Iraq are helping the enemy to gain confidence that the more Americans they kill the better the chance is that we will pull out.
"We will stay the course" said the President, and I believe he will.
Obviously I am "wet behind the ears" and stupid, since I disagree with you, and your glorious roadmap for one nation under Bush. Duh. Still, you might like this poem that I lifted from Slashdot (sorry, can't find the original link). It's obviously quite old, but it's still good.
(to the tune of "if you're happy & you know it")
If you cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
If the markets are a drama, bomb Iraq.
If the terrorists are frisky,
Pakistan is looking shifty,
North Korea is too risky,
Bomb Iraq.
If we have no allies with us, bomb Iraq.
If we think someone has dissed us, bomb Iraq.
So to hell with the inspections,
Let's look tough for the elections,
Close your mind and take directions,
Bomb Iraq.
It's "pre-emptive non-aggression", bomb Iraq.
Let's prevent this mass destruction, bomb Iraq.
They've got weapons we can't see,
And that's good enough for me,
'Cos it's all the proof I need to
Bomb Iraq.
If you never were elected, bomb Iraq.
If your mood is quite dejected, bomb Iraq.
If you think Saddam's gone mad,
With the weapons that he had,
(And he tried to kill your dad),
Bomb Iraq.
If your corp'rate fraud is growin', bomb Iraq.
If your ties to it are showin', bomb Iraq.
If your politics are sleazy,
And hiding that ain't easy,
And your manhood's getting queasy,
Bomb Iraq.
Fall in line and follow orders, bomb Iraq.
For our might knows not our borders, bomb Iraq.
Disagree? We'll call it treason,
Let's make war not love this season,
Even if we have no reason,
Bomb Iraq.
Well, Mr. Whispering Death, it seems that you have a problem with literacy. See, if you could read you would find that neither of us said anything about terrorists or Iraq. While Bug might be against it, I wasn't. Again, if you were capable of comprehension above a kindergarten level, you would see that Bug just commented on the one-sidedness of the politics of late and that my problems with Bush are domestic.
His signing of the anti-abortion law was uninformed and hasty (and I'm pro life, mind you). He's probably going to sign that stupid, bloated, non-functioning medicare revision. That's just retarded.
Sorry to everybody else for taking up space for this. If there's one thing I hate, it's having words put in my mouth. Mr. Death, your "morals" are probably the cause behind the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and most other travesties commited by the anglo-saxon male.
Posted by: Jason at December 2, 2003 05:27 PMI returned to Hungary not long ago for a visit to some old friends. My old flat was being occupied by my girlfriend's sister and some boarders. One of them was an Iraqi citizen who was in Hungary doing mechanical work. We had a great time. He had really no opinion about the invasion (this was April) or any opinion about Americans in general. To both of us, it was all about politics and rhetoric. Better to share a beer and talk like any other travellers.
To Bug and Arg,
Like most democrats you two have this irrational hatred for President Bush. If clinton were in office doing the same thing you would be loving it. Fact is when clinton said the same things about Iraq we didn't hear you democrats protesting.
Just which west coast liberal university did you attend.
Time and history will tell that President Bush is right and all you lefty lunatics should go back to Pluto where you came from, very peaceful there. But I digress.
Don't forget to attend the hate Bush meeting at the Beverly Hilton tonight, you may meet some of your Hollywood wackos there.
Posted by: Whispering Death at December 3, 2003 12:41 AMAlright, boyo. That's it. If you keep making assumptions like that, you're not going to get very far. I'm a registered independent, and have voted republican almost exclusively since I have been eligible to vote. I have a strong background in many "right-wing" ideologies, and I didn't particularly like anything about Clinton (though I maintain what I said earlier about not being able to find facts due to the sex scandal).
I have no irrational hatred towards anybody. I mostly approved of how we have dealt with Al-Qaeda, Iraq, and terrorism in general (although I will hold that the domestic side of the war on terror is not set up correctly). I have a well-backed reason for my intense dislike of Bush's domestic policies.
You, sir, need to stop putting words in other people's mouths. And, FYI, I attended Brigham Young University (Utah - and very conservative, I might add), and I live in Texas, and plan on finishing up at TTU. And even if it was a "liberal west coast school," at least I paid attention when I attended. Seems like more than can be said of you.
Do me a favor: don't breed.
Posted by: Jason at December 3, 2003 03:20 AMArg
Truce!
Ok, so I got carried away and put words in your mouth. I should have given you a chance to speak your mind and not put words in your mouth.
No comment from Bug, I don't consider Utah the west coast I was talking about the likes of UCLA, or Stanford, can't get much more liberal than Stanford.
Since I was a kid I used to listen to Walter Cronkite, Dan Rather, watch the Today Show, I used to believe everything these people said. Until the last election and the Bush haters floated to the top. It seems 99% of the print and broadcast media are liberal. The conservative viewpoint has been hidden until recently. I never realized there was such a big difference. Actually there wasn't such a big difference in the 60s.
It seems to me that many people who are against Bush and the war just don't have enough knowledge to make that decision, and they refuse or don't care to hear the conservative viewpoint. I'm not saying that you fall into this category. Since you are an independant.
I have listened to democrats with an open mind but I don't agree with them and like Sean Hannity I wouldn't want them to be in power. It seems to me that most democrats do not want to hear the other side with an open mind. They either resort to name calling or change the subject or do not answer all together. It's like they have blinders on, they refuse to even consider an opposing point of view.
There are millions of points of view about how to resolve terrorism. We have a President who has a strong point of view and is willing to stick his neck out for what he believes is right. We have to stand behind him.
What do you think Gore would have done? We would still be trying to negotiate with the UN while terrorists continued to grow and plan more attacks on our soil.
I don't have all the answers but I do not understand how anyone could be against what we are doing in Iraq. They just announced the discovery of over 240 mass graves in Iraq. It appears that the scientist in Iraq duped Saddam into thinking he had all of these weapons.
We have done more good by ousting Saddam than letting him continue the plundering of his country and his own people. He is Evil as are the terrorists. The only way to deal with this evil is to Kill it. Unfortunately our soldiers will be killed in the process. As I said before these people want to kill us, some Americans don't want to believe that others would sit back and let thugs burn their neighbors house and rape the women. America is not like that, we detest terriorism, we detest tyrannical dictators. People hate us because of what we have, and they forget what we have done for the world. And we do it because we care, we don't do it for monitary gain.
This is my last posting here. Thanks for reading.
Whispering death is the name written on the Abrams tanks of the 66th Armored Division. The whisper is the sound you hear as they approach.
Ok, I'm sorry that I can't post replies in real-time, but I really have better things to do other than clicking that "reload" button.
Nonetheless, I feel that I should respond, because the attitude exemplified by our tank-loving friend is really quite prevalent nowadays. Put succinctly, it goes something like this: "You hate Bush just because of your irrational bleeding-heart liberalism. And if you hate Bush, you hate America. And if you hate America, then you love terrorists. And terrorists are pure evil. Therefore, YOU are pure evil. You are everything that's wrong with America today !!! Die die die !!!".
There are so many things wrong with these kind of beliefs that I don't even know where to begin. But the major fallacy here is the false dillemma: "either you're with Bush, or against America". In reality, there are more than two choices: I could be a patriot who believes that Bush is in fact damaging America, or I could be a terrorist who hates America and Bush alike, or I could be an evil mastermind who hates America but likes what Bush is doing with it, etc. The bottom line is that Bush and American wellbeing are not equivalent.
There is, however, a more disturbing undercurrent in all this: the newly spreading belief that dissent of any kind implies treason. The amazing thing about the USA is that it actively encourages dissent: it is a country where dissenting citizens are not merely allowed, but in fact bound by duty to have their voices heard. Our political system, as envisioned by the Framers, channels this dissent to improve the quality of life for all. This idea -- putting the power into the hands of the citizens, not solely into the hands of the leaders -- is what ultimately made the USA a superpower that it is today.
Unfortunately, as we have witnessed many times throughout history, there's no way to ensure that democracy survives if the people don't want it -- since, ultimately, they can just vote democracy away. What I fear most is that, in a fit of jingoism, the people of this country will do just that. We already came perilously close during the McCarthy era -- when we nearly became the very thing we fought -- but it looks like we didn't learn anything.
In more concrete terms, I believe that our liberty should NOT be sacrificed to destroy evil dictators and such. I do NOT believe that no price is too great to destroy Saddam, Osama or whomever. When the dust clears, I want to still have a country that's worthy of my citizenship. Therefore, I am NOT willing to blindly support our President if I believe that he's doing a bad job, as many people seem to advocate.
Bush, however, seems to disagree with me, and that's the primary reason why I want him out of office. His PATRIOT/PATRIOT II acts, plus other laws and resolutions enacted by him or by Ashcroft, are eroding the very things that make our country different from, say, Iran. There are many other reasons, which are actually outlined fairly well in that little song I posted: Bush sued himself into office; his domestic programs (as Jason has pointed out) are insane; his ultra-conservative religious views remind me too much of ye olde Crusades; he lied to his people repeatedly to justify the war; he waged war on a country which posed relatively little threat compared to North Korea (who basically as much as promised to nuke us in the near future); he got the rest of the world pissed at us by acting like a boorish emperor; he shamelessly used the war to distract the public from his own shady dealings; he let Microsoft get off the hook virtually for free; and he keeps making these patriotic speeches about eradicating all evil for the Glory of our God that freeze blood in my veins. You can disagree with some or all of these reasons, but you can hardly call them "irrational". Would Gore have been a better President ? I don't know, but I would be willing to find out. Was Clinton a better President ? Probably not, but that's hardly relevant to our current situation.
In summary, yes, I am against Bush, and yes, I hate the terrorists as much as anyone else -- probably more, in fact, since I spent three years in Israel. However, I do not believe that our basic freedoms are a worthwhile sacrifice in the war, and neither do I believe that Bush is doing a good job as President. I do not recall swearing a personal oath of allegiance to him, in any case.
Posted by: Bugmaster at December 3, 2003 11:18 AMHey stass...cry me a river.
Posted by: The Gavin at December 4, 2003 10:19 AMHey, Mr. Death and you are not the only ones with a license to troll.
Posted by: Bugmaster at December 4, 2003 12:59 PMI like to troll, you catch lots of fish that way!
Youre just like draggin the line behind the boat while your chillin and then BAM! Theres a fish on the line and they slow the boat and your strugglin with the 50 lb bad boy, and your like =O!!! Cuz the fish is so big and you get all crazy eyed. And then once you get the fish on deck its flopping all over the place and then you jab your pliers into its head so it gets X's for eyes X-{ and it stops flopping. And then youre like =D cuz youre so happy you killed you some grub!! We should go trolling some day stass!
Gavin, you're nuts.
Posted by: Gio at December 5, 2003 01:40 AMApparantly in my absence, nothing much has changed.
Posted by: Jason at December 5, 2003 03:31 AMwhat about em mike? =O!!!!!!
Posted by: The Gavin at December 5, 2003 06:11 AMseveral posters here exhibit symptoms of BDS -- "Bush Derangement Syndrome". Defined as "the acute onset of paranoia in otherwise normal people in reaction to the policies, the presidency -- nay -- the very existence of George W. Bush."
For more info:
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/opinion/7419093.htm
And --
The route to peace in the Middle East follows the path of a bullet through Arafat's brain.
Posted by: PurgeTheHerd at December 9, 2003 02:02 AMYou're right about the path to peace, of course. It's too bad that you suffer from RIS (Republican Illiteracy Syndrome). I suggest that you ask someone else to read the comments on this thread to you; if you do, you will discover that we oppose Bush's policies, not Bush himself. For the record, I opposed many of Clinton's policies too, as I think I mentioned above. I guess I am one of these rare people who is more interested in results, not campaign rhetoric.
Posted by: Bugmaster at December 11, 2003 04:36 PMi just have to say this from a 17 year old's point of view. And, yes, though Im young, Im well aware of the world around me. I think that Bush is senseless in the killing of our American soldiers and the innocent civilians in Iraq. Most people pro-Bush think that 9/11 was evil. I agree, but we're doing the same thing to their people as we bomb them and kill them. That country has been fighting for hundreds of years, and will continue whether we're there or not. It's an idiotic war that Bush alone is waging to make him look like an important president, and since you adults re-elected him, he'll continue to kill our men and women along with Iraq's. It's obvious that hardly anyone agrees with him in the white house since Colin Powell stepped down along with countless other members of the "team". ANd if you're for Bush so much, why don't know go out and join the army? There's a difference in supporting as a civilian and supporting as a soldier with your life. And Clinton was a better President by far. He made mistakes but so does everyone, inclusingt you. The important part of his mistakes, though, was that it cost him his reputation, not America her citizens. Care to argue?
Posted by: Maria at November 20, 2004 08:02 PM